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Subject:   RE: Trevor -  EXACTLY - why Legislation needed !  
Date sent: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 14:19:16 +1100  NOTE DATE 1 - Our Computers are correct, is it the ISP ?
From:      "Pyman, Trevor \(SKM\)" 

Thank you for your extremely lengthy reply.

1. The EasyBiz project will use whatever standards produce the best
result for our stakeholders.

2. Your email will be considered by SKM Consultants.

3. We have no interest in participating in your proposed eCommittee.


-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen GOULD [mailto:sgould@oic.org] 
Sent: Thursday, 30 November 2006 12:52 AM  NOTE DATE 2 - Our Computers are correct, is it the ISP ?
To: Trevor PYMAN
Cc: Standards Australia; OASIS 2006 Attendees; eConsultants
Subject: Trevor - EXACTLY - why Legislation needed ! 

07:42 Wed 29 Nov 2006					REF:JSKAACN2		
							Y/R: AS 4590
TO: 	Trevor PYMAN			cc	Members of Parliament
	Project Manager - Easybiz		EasyBiz Councils
	SINCLAIR KNIGHT MERZ			Interested Parties

Thank you for your response 15:06 Tue 28 Nov 2006 which confirms
why Legislation is needed.

As time is running out to confirm the single XML AS 4590 Address for
the Council Vendor Integration project your response to this email would 
appreciated by 17:00 Fri 01 Dec 2006.

Your response, as the Project Manager for this project which will be of 
interest to all Australian Councils, highlights the fact that most, if not 
all,  the Management involved with Electronic Commerce in Australia, 
do not understand the problems.

That is why eCommerce systems like the Ports Tradegate and Ports
systems around Australia have been a disaster for the last 15 years. 

And why I was the only person invited to give evidence on Chapter 15: 
Government Procurement and Chapter 16: Electronic Commerce to the 
Senate Inquiry into the Australian-USA Free Trade Agreement

I am providing a detailed response that includes my own experiences
with complex eCommerce applications because this is a very, very 
important issue for every Council and its Rate-payers

A	Response confirms why legislation needed
B	Specific concerns in relation to AS 4590
C	Why BizDex Hub cannot work for Councils
D	Dec 2006 clarifying AS 4590 Standard not different standard
E	Next Steps


Your response confirms that is why legislation is needed because
the people who make money from writing IT code and charging for
ongoing IT services have a vested interest in leaving the current 
AS 4590 Standard as it is currently published

> Advice from our developers and the software vendors who supply
> systems to EasyBiz councils is that they have no problem with 
> the schema as it stands. 

This is why my paper to the OASIS XML Conference stated that the
Computer Industry is "at times grossly irresponsible and ignores its
Social obligations"

An illustration of the Computer Industry irresponsibility is the Speech 
given by Robert ZOELLICK US Trade Minister 2004/05/25 to the US 
Electronic Industry Alliance [EIA] one week after the US had signed 
the Free Trade Agreement with Australia [Aus-USA FTA].

In that Speech Ambassador ZOELLICK states

"4 	We’re securing provisions on technology neutrality, a very
	important element for a competitive economy like ours and 
	commitments to use open and voluntary technological standards 
	to promote the competitiveness of U.S. business"

"Open and Voluntary Technological Standards !!!!" 

The rest of the World may be trying to adopt the UN/EDIFACT code
on a Voluntary basis.

However EIA had lobbied for the US Federal Government to pass 
legislation that the US Federal Government legislate that all US 
Government Agencies must use the US ANSI-X12 Standard. 

This was confirmed by our contacts in the US that the US had 
legislated that the US eCommerce Standard is used by Government
Agencies and not the International eCommerce Standard

Yet the US Trade Ambassador states that the US uses "Open and 
Voluntary Standards" and does not inform its most loyal ally of 
the legislation during the Aus-USA FTA negotiations.

Ambassador ZOELLICK has now joined Goldman Sachs Merchant Bank
almost similar to the way Bob CARR ex-NSW Premier is retained as 
a part-time consultant on $ 500,000/year by Macquarie Bank

The Prime Minister John HOWARD and Trade Minister Mark VAILE
may have been "set up" by the Aus-USA FTA 


> Please advise of your specific concerns in relation to the AS4590
> National Name and Address XML Schema with AGIMO as they
> are the responsible entity for the publication of this schema.

The Specific concerns with AS 4590 have been detailed on this
web-page which has been sent to you three times before and
placed on the web site rather than a pdf file as a reference point

There are two XML Address formats in AS 4590 with no indication
as to which format should be used  

1	AS4590 Address

2	AS4590 Complex

This means

1	The software developers will chose one or the other

2	Software has to be developed by the Hub to check which address
	standard is used each time a message is sent

3	A charge for this service has to be paid by the client for each 
	message to be checked

Please review The Object of each Electronic Transaction Act passed
by the Commonwealth and State Governments

The problem we Tax and Rate-payers have with AGIMO is that the 
Federal and State Governments have a vested interest from the 
Electronic Transaction Acts for "encouraging" as many electronic 
transactions as possible

Hence this is why everyone is "encouraged" to sms and email the
radio and TV shows.

In 1989 I attended a one week Conference in Brussels where we were
informed that the plans were in 2015 there would be no telephone 

When I asked who had made those plans everyone around me started 
to laugh.

However in 1991 while I was in Brussels speaking with the two Australian
who were at the head of the Customs Co-operation Council for 5 years 
I learned Australia was going to receive funds from Europe to set up 
eCommerce projects.

In 1994 it was confirmed that Australia would indeed receive funding
from Europe

This was the funding for the Hawke-Keating "Networking the Nation"
Strategy which is still being funded today


I can appreciate that the Australian Wheat Board [AWB] Bizdex
Hub as a single Desk is an excellent way for the farmers to send 
their invoices and receive payment for the wheat exported.

However there are a number of reasons why it cannot work in the
applications defined for the Councils.

One on the major problems for eCommerce is that each organisation
has its own reference numbering system.

So each of the Councils will have a different reference number system
for each of the 25 applications.

Bizdex will also have to have its own reference number for the
electronic message to each Council.

In 1989 I was working on the Eurofighter eCommerce project
in Munich with the European Aerospace Association [AECMA]

The problem for Eurofighter was that it was an aircraft that
had different parts built in different Countries so language
and time zones were also part of the problem.

In 1992 I was working with a software house in Salford University
called 3S on the Eurofighter project when they received a number
of emails on the problems with each business having different 
Reference numbers 

Paula SWATMAN of the EDI Council of Australia [EDICA] provided 
a response that did not address the problem

At that time EDICA was recognised as the world leading organisation 
in EDI with 19 out of the 99 World Rapporteurs based in Australia.

Michael BAKER the CEO of EDICA was the Chairman of the Standard
Australia EDI IS/11 Committee

In 1989 Michael BAKER was the MC for a US Conference and EIDCA provided 
many of the speakers for the US EDI Conference in 
Los Angeles

The Software House 3S also provided a response about how the 
RUBAC Electronic Information Management could address the 

While Bizdex is looking after the permits and council applications
some councils have outsourced their tenders to other Hubs.

An example is Geelong which uses the Tenderlink Hub.

Geelong have one reference code for the tender and Tenderlink
have another reference code.

The problems will be when the Councils want to move to Tender/
Contract Management Systems

In 2004 the Western Australia Department of Housing published a tender for 
a Tender/Contract Management System

On Sat 25 Nov 2006 Boroondara Council issued a tender for a 
Contract Management System

Councils may be required to move to Contract Management Systems 
as part of the their Economic Development, Tourism, Waste 
Management, Recreation and Volunteer Management Strategies.

Hence the importance to have a single XML Address format so we can
enable each Council to have the right XML Framework from the start


The Action and timetable proposed to Philip Argy President of the 
Australian Computer Society is that Dec 2006 is we clarify a
single XML Address format for AS 4590.

It is not proposing an alternative standard


In the meantime now the issues have been explained to you 
in detail will you confirm that:

1	You as the Easybiz System Integration Project Manager will
	instruct all Software Houses and Councils to use the 
	AS4590 Complex Address
2	You will explain the issue to other SKM Management and

3	you may reconsider participating in the proposed eCommittee
	to increase your own knowledge on eCommerce if the current 
	AS 4590 Standard conforms with the International Standard

I would appreciate your response by 17:00 Fri 01 Dec 2006

Thank you

Yours sincerely

Stephen GOULD
XML & eCommerce Committee
12:01  W 2006/11/28	Syd	2065

E:	sggould@oic.org
M:	0416-009-468
W:	OIC Events on XML & eCommerce - 2000-2006

On 28 Nov 06, at 15:06, Pyman, Trevor (SKM) wrote:

> Please advise of your specific concerns in relation to the AS4590
> National Name and Address XML Schema with AGIMO as they are the
> responsible entity for the publication of this schema. The many emails
> you have sent on this matter contain vague inferences to a problem but
> no specifics of the actual problem or its impact.
> Advice from our developers and the software vendors who supply systems
> to EasyBiz councils is that they have no problem with the schema as it
> stands. 
> We are simply adopting the national standard. We are not interested in
> your suggestion of working on a competing standard.
> Cheers,
> TP
> -----Original Message-----
> Sent: Friday, 24 November 2006 7:55 PM
> To: Trevor PYMAN; Sinclair Knight Merz; EasyBiz-PDMG
> Cc: EasyBiz-Members; Northern Beaches Sport; HIN; eConsultants
> Subject: Trevor - please confirm SKM advice to Easybiz Councils
> 08:29 Fri 24 Nov 2006				 REF:JSKAACN1		
> Y/R: AS 4590
> TO: 	Trevor PYMAN			cc	EasyBiz Councils
> 	Project Manager - Easybiz		Members of Parliament
> Trevor - further to my recent emails to the Easybiz members and 
> SKM on the two XML Address formats within AS 4590 this email is
> to ask you to confirm what advice you are giving to the Council
> Members and the Company awarded the Council Integration project
> on which XML Address format to use.
> I have proposed to Philip ARGY President of the Australian Computer
> Society a time table to confirm a single XML Address format during
> Dec 2006
> In the meantime 
> > As the Victorian 32 Local Government Consortium has a very 
> > clearly defined timetable I am proposing that, as an interim step, 
> > the Sinclair Knight Merz [SKM] Consultant for that project advise 
> > the Councils and whoever was awarded the Contract that the 
> > Complex Address of AS 4590 is always used for all transactions 
> Please confirm 
> 1	if you are prepared to advise involved EasyBiz Parties to use
> 	the Complex AS 4590 XML Address version as a interim step
> 2	if you would be able to participate in the proposed eCommittee
> 	to define a single XML Address format 
> Thank you
> regards
> Stephen GOULD
> Chair
> XML & Ecommerce Special Interest Group
> E:	sggould@oic.org
> M:	0418-009-468
> W:	http://www.oic.org/z/LZIG
> 12:06 Fri 29 Sep 2006					REF:61C1BAN1
					> Y/R: Contract No. CT060742
> TO:	Neil HOCKING			cc	EasyBiz Mayors
> 	Chair - EasyBiz Consortium		EasyBiz Interests
> Dear Chairman 
> This email is to explain there will be a permanent on-going costs for 
> Councils involved with the EasyBiz Vendor Integration project as the 
> XML Structure is currently defined.
> Although the Specification includes reference to AS4590 the format 
> of the Property Contact details is not in AS4590 format.
> There are 2 main areras where AS4590 is not followed:
> 1	The Address format of the Property Details
> 2	The Telephone and Fax format of the Property and 
> 	Contact Details
> The objectives of the Tender and the details of those flaws in the
> AS4590 Vendor Integration can be reviewed here
> This will provide a long-term on going cost for Councils and
> also a perptual cost for Home and Small businesses that 
> wish to link electronically to other Government Enterprises that
> use AS4590.
> In addition AS4590 suffers from the same problem as UN/EDIFACT
> the International Standard in that the address details are ambiguous
> This has led to the many problems surrounding the rapid acceptance and 
> implementation of eCommerce.
> As I have said before at times the CIT Industry is grossly irresponsible
> and ignores its Social Obligations in the pursuit of long term revenue
> This is a very important issues as EasyBiz and BizDex objectives are
> to develop an application that all Councils will adopt.
> Possibly Australia has to consider Legislation similar to the Law
> that the US Federal Government passed in1996 to ensure all US 
> Government Agencies used ANSI-X12
> Please confirm if EasyBiz is to adopt:
> 1	the Complex Address from of AS4590 for all Contact Addresses
> 2	The telephone and fax structure of AS4590 for all communications
> Your members may wish to attend the OASIS XML Open Standard
> Conference on 25-27 Oct to understand more of the issues invvolved
> with effective Council IT Systems.
> The OIC has negotiated a special fee for Local Governmeent Agencies to 
> attend this Conference
> Yours faithfully
> Stephen GOULD
> Chair
> Local Government & XML Special Interest Group
> E:	sggould@oic.org
> M:	0416-009-468
[ Home ] [ eCommerce Tenders ] [ UN/CEFACT - the objectives ] [ XZIG Membership ] [ OIC AS 4590 Paper ] [ Previous Link ] [ Index ] [ Copyright ]

Revised: S: 13:57 Sat 2004/10/23 Syd 2065
F: 14:17 Sat 2004/10/23 Syd 2065
Who: aer
Authorised: sgg
Created: 11:00 Sat 2004/10/23 Syd 2065
By: kmb
Revision: 3a4h1.002
Original Page: 3a4h
Change date: